An aspiring Christian Baptist Minister meets Muslim in a BAR and learns Islam

Bismillah Alhamdulillah salaam aleikum greetings of peace to everybody. How are you you come to get some food for the soul you've been replete with everything else, but it's not satisfying the soul Money can't buy that happiness. It won't bring you peace not even a six pack of peace you can't buy it

Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa salaam aleikum greetings of peace to everybody all over the globe. Thank you for tuning in to another episode on the deen show. Our next guest was an inspiring aspiring Baptist minister from Texas. And he's here on the dean show to share his story on why he came to this beautiful Dean his way of life that brought him peace, happiness, and contentment. And he realized that you know what? I need to be on the way of life that's pleasing into the crater before I meet the Creator, and he's here to share his story with us here on today's show. We'll be right back.

I greet you with the greetings of Jesus. Now, before I do that, you already know where that is. What is that? Salaam peace, peace? Where people who want pieces and the true I mean, now what what did you think before? Look, time is short. So I just like to just get in it. So tell us before you became one who submitted to the will of God, a Muslim? You are aspiring Baptist minister, what would you know about Islam before? Well, nothing, nothing. Did you believe that Muslims are like terrorists, Arabs, you know that we're right in the desert on camels. And no, my story begins back in 1989 when I was actually in college, and I was not studying to be a minister. But I decided my

senior year that I wanted to become a Baptist minister. So I decided to finish my degree. And my senior year for my entertainment. I drugged all of my colleagues and friends and everybody I knew into a religious conversation, to help me prepare for seminary as a Baptist, I was going to go to a Baptist seminary, and my senior year in college, inviting people to talk about religion. If you haven't done this on a college campus, I would highly recommend you do it just for the entertainment value. If nothing else, it's hard to find any two people who agreed on anything. And so as I'm talking to people about religion, I am introduced to people who are Muslim, I became friends with

somebody who was a Muslim. I didn't know the first thing about Islam. But after our introduction and our friendship, I dragged him into a religious conversation. And it didn't take me long to consider my friend, a confused Christian. I knew nothing about Islam, but from what he was sharing with me. We had a very similar faith, except he was confused about Jesus.

So before we get tell us so but why did you get into this field? Why did you want to become a Baptist minister? Why specifically that area? Well, I was I grew up Christian, my family was Christian. And as I went to school, I actually grew up in a very conservative family where I didn't have a lot of what I thought was freedom. So when I got to college, I, I cut loose, and I enjoyed myself for the first second third year. And after a while, I started to think this is not who I am. This is not how I was brought up. This is not mean. So I had an epiphany that I wanted to become a Baptist minister and get back to where I belong back to the faith. So this is what encouraged me to

decide to become a Baptist minister. Now you have what do you have Lutheran Do you have nondenominational? How many? Actually 1000s of hundreds of denomination sects are there. And how did you come to this one because of your family? Yeah, my family. I grew up Baptists, that was it. Just your continuing to tradition. My mom loved me. My dad loved me. They wouldn't lie. had to be right. What do Baptists actually believe?

What do they actually believe? Yeah. Did you believe that Jesus was Lord Savior, he was God Almighty as a Baptist. He live in a verse called john 316. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. So

God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved. So Jesus was my Savior, as a mentor. So Baptist believed that you just have to have faith. Is that right? You just have to have faith that Jesus died for your sins and you're going to heaven. Right? They believe that salvation is based on grace that nobody can earn salvation and that if you accept the Atonement of Jesus, the payment of sin, the atonement, then that's how you attain salvation. Okay, so now you meet this Muslim, what happens next?

Well, I met the Muslim and we talked about religion. And after he explained a little bit about Islam, I considered him a confused Christian. That was my summary of what you shared with me. So we continue to talk. And as we talked about religious

or religion in general, every time we brought up a topic, he wasn't necessarily practicing. He wasn't in the dowel, he wasn't trying to convert me at all. We met in a bar. So we didn't meet and like

he wasn't even practiced.

He, he would then every time we had this conversation, he loved to talk religion, he loved to talk politics, so he was not shy to talk. He just wasn't practicing. Yeah. And so after we'd have a conversation, the next time we met, he would bring me a book, a pamphlet, a brochure, something on that topic, but a religious comparative dialogue between a Muslim and a Christian. So I would get this information. And as I would be presented with this comparative religion, dialogue between me and my friend, I start to hear some of the

the dialogue this the Muslims and Christians have had forever, this interfaith dialogue, what are the differences? What are the similarities in Islam, I was introduced to one of the probably renowned scholars, a gentleman named Ahmed deedat, who passed away, you

know, I read all of his books, he actually brought me one book at a time for mom and dad, because it tied into our conversation, I started getting information from mom and dad, I get information from Jamal Badawi, Gary Miller, all the places religious dialogue started to come alive. And I'm taking it upon myself to convert my new Muslim friend to Christianity. And I'm learning about Islam and the process. And I'm continuing to have religious conversations with everybody around me just for my entertainment, basically drag them into the conversation. And what I'm finding out is that everybody has a different opinion about religion, or whatever it is, they believe, why they believe it, and

what's holding them to it. And it started to frustrate me like, how do you share with everybody who's different? A religion when nobody, you know, somebody has an emotional attachment? Somebody had an experience somebody who was driving a car. So it's like, how do you? How am I going to do Tao as a Christian, right? And I, it occurred to me through the conversation I had with my friends that the best way to do down would be to convince other people of how authentic and persuasive the Bible is, you can rely on the Bible, you can trust the Bible, you can use the Bible as your authority. So I decided that my Tao as a Christian, would be to use the Bible to persuade other people of

Christianity instead of an emotional connection, instead of an argument. So because I wanted to go that route, I decided to,

to learn more about the history of the Bible, so that I can convince other of its authority.

Do you want me to keep going, okay. So as I did that, I myself had to learn more about the Bible. I was convinced the Bible was true. Again, my mom loved me, she wouldn't lie. This has to be right. Everybody I knew was Christian. So I it was just me that needed to know how to understand the Bible better to present it. As I started to study the Bible, and what's called the historicity of the Bible. I started to learn more about the book that I believed in. The more I learned about the book that I believed in, the more confused I became, I started learning things that I didn't learn in Sunday School things I didn't hear in church service, things that it was never told to me as a

Christian, give us an example. Well, I started to learn how we got the Bible. And the Bible is a collection of books that have come together over time. And I was shocked to find out that the books that are now in the Bible, specifically the King James Version of the Bible, just in case, there's different versions, that we don't know who the authors are, there are people today you pick up a Bible, the author is unknown. We pick up books of the Bible, we find that the Old Testament, the copies we have of the Old Testament, the oldest version of the Old Testament is newer than the oldest versions of the New Testament. And we find that these, there were counsels and votes taken on

which book should be in which should be out, and that when you look for the history of this book, you start to say it's more concerning than persuasive.

The more I learned about the history of the Bible, the more challenging my own conviction became. And I started to learn and really, I have a bad habit. And that is if something's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. So I have this one speed, you know, full speed ahead. Yeah. So I immersed myself in this, my senior year and talking to people about religion and trying to convince them about the authority of the Bible. And as I'm learning more about the Bible, and I learned about the New Testament and learn more about Jesus, and he spoke Aramaic, and nothing's, nothing's been preserved in his original tongue nothings in Hebrew, the closest dialect that the Jews spoke and preserved all

their religion in. So I started to get more and more frustrated with the authority of the Bible. Then I started reading more about comparative religious dialogue and these authors like Ahmed deedat, or somebody who is trying to show that maybe there's a better authority than the Bible was challenging. The Bible says the Bible, God's word, is this, you know, are authentic, is this accurate? As I'm struggling with that to try to, to actually command it to where I can persuade somebody else? I'm introduced to more ideas. One of the ideas I had no idea that even existed is that Muslims think that Muhammad is mentioned in the Bible.

And I said, No, I've been to school, I've grown up in this religion, we don't talk about Muhammad. He's not in the book. He's not in the Old Testament. He's not in the New Testament. I'm pretty sure this is where you've gone off base. But I asked people to share with me what verses they feel applied to the Prophet Mohammed. And there's a plethora, there's lots of verses that people say this is, this is the Prophet Mohammed in the Bible. And you go read the verse, and it may not say the Prophet by name, but it mentioned somebody is going to do something at a certain time in a certain way. And as I read these verses, I'm thinking, whatever you want to interpret, anybody can come up

with any conclusion they want. But for me, I wanted to know what the Christian would say, to the Muslim in response. So I got the best answers. I could explain each verse. And as I heard the argument of this is the Prophet Mohammed, here's his life, here's his story. Here's where he's coming from, here's what he's going to do, here's how he's going to do it. Here's what he's going to say all of this

started to persuade me that my book that I believed in, was actually ordering me to follow this person that I didn't even recognize. And that only did it ordered me to follow him. It was so specific as to what and who and how, in every way that this person was the person who he claimed to be Mohammed, and that Christians and Jews were told to follow once again. So to make a long story short, I actually the time I graduated, I had learned enough about the history of the Bible I had done a comparative religious study of Muhammad in the Bible, is the Bible God's word. I had challenged the authority of the Quran and tried to tear it apart because once I saw the

similarities, I saw the problems I was having with the Bible. And I tried to do to discredit the Quran in the same way I was actually discrediting myself. And I found that the Quran ended up being everything I wanted Christianity to be as far as authority and authenticity. So by the time I graduated, I embraced Islam instead of going to seminary. This is a very intriguing story. My ears are glued. I'm sure yours are also don't go anywhere, because we got a lot more to talk about with Camille Meeks here on the deen show. We'll be right back. You think these things are gonna bring you happiness? You know why you keep going back to the club, and you keep getting going back to these

desires.

Because you never find satisfaction.

It's gonna end up causing you if it hasn't already a lot of pain.

You're kidding yourself.

What we are offering in Islam, what we have found in Islam for ourselves is a means by which our hearts are at peace. They're at rest. They're not discontent. We are pleased with what we have.

Back here with khaleel Meeks, aspiring Baptist minister, now you're a Muslim? And at that time, was it? Was it something that at that time you're getting confused? Obviously not all these things that you're believing for your whole life you believed in your whole life and now here comes all this new information? Were you scared? What were some of the things that were going through your mind? Did you want to shut it off? Did you just want to or was it was it? Was it something that was motivating you more? Did you go back to some of your friends Christian some of the higher ups and did they tell you look this is from the devil leave it alone to talk to us about this? Well as I was doing my

research and it basically it boils back down to

The same question that I

posed the beginning of my Muslim friend, instead of him being a confused Christian, maybe I was a confused Muslim. And my, my search at that point came down to is Jesus God or not that was it in your mind? If he's God, then I'm a Christian. If he's not, I'm a Muslim symbol. That was it. And so as I wanted to focus on that issue, what I started to see is Jesus speaking to me from the Bible, in his own words, not what I heard from the, the the minister, not what I heard in Sunday school, not the theology, I wanted Jesus to tell me who he is, where he came what he did. So I could see if Jesus is telling me He's God, or if he says something different. And when I start looking at Jesus,

and what he said, in the Bible, he said, the father is greater than I, I have my own self do nothing. Why call us me good, there's none good, but the father, Our Father, who art in heaven, even on the cross, he says, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? So I started to hear Jesus telling me, he's not God, I start to see Jesus thing that I am not what you're hearing from others, or their interpretation of what Jesus said. And so when I studied even more, and I really wanted to know, I mean that you take soul searching when you when you base your faith on something, and that foundation is challenged.

I'm not wanting to run from it, I was just one to, to go more into it. So I really wanted to know if I was right, or if Islam was right, and hearing the,

the concept of Tao heat of Islam, that God is one that like you say, we we worship the Creator, not the creation, you can touch it, taste it, see it feel it, it's less than divine somehow, it is. It's dependent on something else. So Islam was simple. It was straightforward. It was direct. It said that Jesus was a prophet, he spoke the truth, everything he said is true. He said, The Father's greater than I didn't do this. So follow what I say and worship God. Versus did he come with a with a mission to atone for sin, and this vicarious atonement? And is this issue of sin, so profound, that we have to have this mechanism, the salvation for us to enter heaven? And from every angle, I

could approach it from logic, from emotion from history, from talking to everybody, I could surround myself with everything that I kept hearing kept pointing me towards Jesus is not God. There is one God, there's a heaven, hell a day of judgment, and I need to be ready for that. What about the people that say, Well, we know that he's not God, he's the son of he's the Begotten Son of God, and no one comes to the Father except through me. They quote this, what do you what do you how do you respond to this?

If words have meaning, Christianity's theology cannot hold, to start with divine nature, denies sonship.

You can't be a divine Son, you can be a son, and you can't be divine, or you can be God. So to be the Son of God is a contradiction. As you move forward in this concept where Jesus said something, and that how do you interpret what he says, right? I am, my Father are One, it can be interpreted a million ways, but he could be the one in purpose, it could be one, and the same person, it could mean lots of things. But when you ask Jesus, who are you? Are you

Christ, the Son of God, even that title he refused to accept. He said, No until no man such a thing. Others continue to apply it. But he didn't say. So. These, these, these

verses that people say that Jesus claimed to be God, have no bearing on

the fact that he was saying I am equal to God. JOHN, one one In the beginning was the Word and Word, the Word was with God and the Word became flesh. You'll hear this thrown out as soon as you say, he's not God, this will be all sped in your face. What do you say about that?

You could answer all of them with the same force of

if what they if I give you the argument of anything that Jesus said, you know, God said I am And Jesus said, Well, before Abraham was I am you know, that were to Yes. So that therefore he's got

without going into the the linguistics and what could be said and what wasn't said. It's a straightforward argument that when Jesus said the father is greater than I write, I have my own self do nothing. Why call me good? There's none good but the father, those verses would be equally challenging for any human

Being to say, well, they have this esoteric meaning they have this meaning that. So this show isn't long enough for me to explain the real meaning of what they have. But I'm just saying in a very simple manner, that Jesus was very clear as to who he was, why he came and what he did. And in my opinion, he ordered Muslims to follow Mohammed, I'll give you this one verse give us in john 16th chapter of john, in the Bible, I use the King James Version, Jesus is speaking to his disciples about things to come. And he said, nevertheless, I tell you the truth, it's expedient for me, Jesus to go, for if I do not go, the Comforter will not come. But if I go, I will send him unto you.

And he and then a few verses later says, and He, the Spirit of Truth, will not speak of himself, but what he hears he shall speak, and he shall guide you into all truth.

Now I have a Muslim audience in front of me right now, if I asked you, what did Jesus mean in that verse? Who would he be referring to?

Muhammad?

If I asked a Christian, they wouldn't bat an eye, they would say that is the comfort of the Holy Ghost. Right? So we say in the Holy Ghost is coming, this Trinity, God, the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, these three and one, there's not three, but they're the same. So

I'll tell the Christian Well, let's read the verse with clarity, so that we're clear on your position, right? Jesus is God, God, the Father is God and the Holy Ghost is God. If we read the verse with just simplicity, we say God said to the Jews, he said, it's expedient for God to go for if God does not go, God will not come. But if God goes, God will send God unto you, then later says, and God, the Spirit of Truth, will not speak of God's self, but what God hears God shall speak, and God shall guide you into all truth.

I don't have to explain that. Yeah. And when you look at the Bible, and you take out this,

this gymnastics of what words mean, or what they can't mean, and how they mean things, it becomes clear what it's telling you to do. It's saying, there's one God, there's a heaven, there's a hell, there's a day of judgment. There's a person who's coming after Jesus, who's going to do these things from varies going to come the city, the people, the tribe, the things he's going to do, you can't mistake it, you would have to have to ignore it, bury it run from it, has to accept it. It's got to be lucid. It's got to be clear. It can't be now esoteric, as you said, and let's just you know, it's confusion, mental gymnastics, to make it work. God's message got to be clear. You can take him for

what it says and it tells you to be a Muslim, one who submitted

We'll be right back with more here on the show.

Because this essential message

this is God talking to you. How can I stand behind the pulpit on Sunday morning has preached a sermon that I knew was at variance with the actual tap root of Christianity

that you say that you do not believe in Jesus you have stepped outside of Islam you cannot be a Muslim is a tenant our faith to believe in in love Jesus Christ comes to you the truth, and the attribute of the one who created you that he's one and alone, running this universe, that he doesn't become boring, he doesn't die, he doesn't eat and go to the bathroom. This is not God. problems here. Yeah, this This doesn't make sense. Who is Jesus worshipping? recorded in the gospels? And despite all of the other issues about the Gospels, we put those aside we just mentioned there that Jesus, worship God.

Back here on the deen show with aspiring Baptist minister, you were working hard you went through life chasing your desires, you let loose as you said, and then you wanted to be a man of God, you obviously believed in God, you met a Muslim, one who submitted to the will of God, a Muslim is simply one who was like Jesus, Jesus was a Muslim. Is that true or not? Yes, Moses was a Muslim. Amen. Amen. Because a Muslim is one who submits to the will of God. So now that tell us you have obviously spoke to some professors at seminary school have you people who've attended graduated? Tell us you know, when when they come across people, such as Bible scholars such as Bart Ehrman,

you've heard of him? Right? And other scholars who tell us that we don't have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of anything original from the Bible. Right? Is that true? You know what arguments and why don't people like as yourself obviously you were searching for God for the truth. You know, I asked you Was it scary was it you know, intimidating because societal pressures, maybe your family I was talking to one person on the street deal.

The day so it makes sense. My grandmother would kill me if I became a Muslim. You know? So how did your parents accept this? And how do people you know, in those higher positions? Do they know they know that we don't have the original text? Matthew didn't write Matthew, Luke, these were, you know, the they're anonymous books. What excuse do people give? I mean, do you ever look at someone I say, Come on, man, I've been here. Well, who you kidding?

Um, no, I, I say that when you get a little comfortable with someone you know what I'm saying? I'm very comfortable. I don't have a problem talking about it. But what, what I find is that there are apologetics for everything. And if you hold a position and you want to defend it, you will see things the way you want to see them. I don't think that the most eloquent argument or the most profound statement, or the most direct

approach to convincing somebody ever works. I've argued with people until I'm blue in the face, I invite theological seminary students to my house to practice before they go so that they get ready for Islam. So they'll come over and they don't buy anything that I say applies to Mohammed, they have apologetics for everything. They're convinced there's not one here, they're convinced that this Bible is perfect and holding complete. They've heard what I've said, they've seen what I've said, they have their position. It's my opinion, after spending the last 2122 years that trying to talk somebody into Islam is a bad idea that Muslims

have a much more powerful way to express their faith, and to talk to people. And that is just shut up and be a Muslim.

Every time I have these debates, and I like them, I enjoy them. To me, it's a it's a fun thing to have somebody who knows what they're talking about, challenge my faith back and forth.

But I've never seen that effective. where somebody you know, like you said, okay, buddy, now tell me Are you with me? Because they get more dogmatic, more defensive more distance, even though we're still in the same room. But if I say excuse me, I need a minute. I have to go pray, because it's just about time to run. So I go pray and I come back. They haven't heard a word I've said for two hours in the arguing. But now they're totally curious as to why I had to stop and pray and what was all that about? And what did you say? And how did you say it? And every time I actually practice my faith, I get a million questions. When I want to talk to somebody about my faith, I get a Hands up,

I've heard enough, that's good for you, thank you very much. Or I have this position and and we start different. So

if I had any advice for myself and others, down was so much more powerful and action than words, when it comes to words, instead of going into a chapter verse understanding, I found the most powerful form of doubt, for all of us, is just to share the concept of tawheed. So that it's clear. If we communicate to anybody on the planet, what we believe as salvation for a Muslim, that there's one God, Heaven, Hell Day of Judgment, that there's a creator who's not like the creation, if you can touch it, taste it, feel it, it's not God. God has these attributes. We know who God is. But we don't know anything more than that. If you can communicate the perfection of tawheed, the oneness of

God, and say, This is my salvation, if I could, if I challenge that concept, and I say something is God, that isn't, I'll go to hell. People understand that. And you can leave down at that level. Because here's what I found out. Once somebody understands how he'd everybody you talk to us, as I believe that they don't try, they do not challenge that. But they tried to make their religion fit into it. And that becomes their genetic, let them do the workout. And what will happen is people will later come back to me, I've given a lecture, I've talked, I've said, Hi, I've shared tawheed, somewhere, I get a phone call Two years later, and somebody's telling me, you know what you said,

I've been wrestling with it. And today I'm a Muslim, or I want to become a Muslim, or I want to cover and it didn't come from an argument. It didn't come from me talking about their faith and tell them how to look at their book and how to see things differently. Just here's what I believe. I love this position. Salaam Alaikum. It is powerful. It is it moves mountains. And it is the thing that all of us can share with anybody would come in the last minute that we have tell us you run an organization called the Muslim legal fund. Yeah. Tell us a little about this. Before we close Yes, I'm very excited about an organization that I helped as a founder. It's called the Muslim legal fund

of America. It's a charity that opened after 2001. So for the last 11 years, it's a charity that helps Muslims face legal challenges here in the US. We collect money from Muslims all over the United States and with the money we collect, we use it to hire attorneys to defend Muslims in the courtroom. And what we've seen is that this is a very necessary thing because of the politics of fear and the things that are going on in this country.

It looks like America is trying to take a new direction. And it's challenging itself everywhere. It's starting to challenge things and liberties that this country was founded on. Freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of advocacy, freedom of protest, freedom to assemble, these things are coming into question in courtrooms all over the country. And the government is coming up with theories that this, this lawful conduct fits some kind of criminal conspiracy. And we are very vested in giving people an opportunity to tell their side of the story to be represented, so that they're not getting railroaded in politics of fear, and where these cases can actually be dealt with

in a very fair, fair and professional manner. So I encourage anybody that wants to learn more about the organization to go to our website, mlf.org I'm gonna put you on the spot real quick. We just another 30 seconds the person now he's kind of in the same situation here toe heel toe, he explained this, what you had mentioned, what is this concept that we believe so strongly about? That is the truth real quickly, Tom, he It is so simple. It means that there is a creator who created everything. Again, if you can touch it, taste it, see it, smell it, if it's tangible, physical in any way, it's not God. So we as human beings in the word Islam means to submit or to surrender,

right to willfully. Take your freewill suppress it and say that I want to follow guidance, I want to follow God's Will I want to do what's right. So that willful submission is what the word Islam means. tawheed means you're surrendering to this creator, this unique being. And as a Muslim, our salvation, our eternal hereafter depends on associating nothing that isn't God with God. So for a Muslim, our salvation means if we worship anything, that we that's tangible, this is a contradiction to Tao, heat. And that, if we do that, we will go to hell. So we can't worship the sun, the moon, the stars, people planet, any idols, everything that that you have in your, your, your your

vocabulary of what we could worship other than God, this concept of the Creator, is forbidden. And it is so simple and so pure, that it means that you have this connection with your Creator through the attributes of God and, and all of the things that God has shared with us about what God is, but that we don't need to confuse ourselves with any type of association with God that isn't. So how he does worship the creator and nothing else. That's right, thank you very much. I made the Creator of the heavens and earth same guy that Jesus worship, Mohammed, Moses, and all the messengers, God rewards you, thank you very much for being with us. Thank you. And that's the message that we're

trying to deliver to you to have a loving relationship with the one who created creation, to worship the Creator, not his creation. And you know what, it's a message that resonates with the heart. And if you're a Muslim, put off talking about halau meat for a minute even talking to your neighbor, but allow me talk to him about to he'd let him get connected with the one who created creation and put all these secondary things on hold for a minute and connect him with the one who gave him life will give them death. And that's a reality. We're all going to die. So let's prepare for that day of judgment. Before we say bye, bye. And we're saying bye right here on a daily show. Until next time,

peace be with you.

Salam Alaikum